THE AG-HVX200 DVC Pro P2 Camcorder...nolonger a myth...

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Digigenic

Guest
THE AG-HVX200
The mythical beast that eludes us all...or at least until NAB.
Rumors are circulating that Panasonic's long awaited entry into the Prosumer HD market with the AG-HVX200 could be revealed in working form as early as NAB 05 (about two months away).
It is said to incorporate the exact same codec as the Varicam, which means it's real HD, NOT HDV, and has the option to record to both tape and/or P2 solid state media, yeah the cool but expensive media.
Oh yeah, and of course, 24P...
This cam could prove to be even more breathtaking than their release of the DVX100, which by all means is still a great camera.
This is an interesting development that appears to be gaining more momentum in the DV filmmaking forums across the web, I guess this is just aiding in that effort :D
Anyone care to confirm, speculate, lash out, or just remain silent, feel free, but just remember, I am just a messenger, and the AG-HVX200 is still just a mythical beast, so be gentle :lol:
 

MarkG

New member
However, the rumors I've heard say it will only record DVCPRO to tape, and HD will have to go to P2 cards: which puts it a long way out of most people's price range.

This cam could prove to be even more breathtaking than their release of the DVX100, which by all means is still a great camera.
If you have about $20,000 to spend on P2 cards :).

Also, if it's only 720p, that's not really even a big step up from PAL (720x576->960x720... about 66% more pixels vs nearly four times as many for 1080).
 
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Digigenic

Guest
MarkG said:
If you have about $20,000 to spend on P2 cards :).
That's a slight over exaggeration, but it's not too far from the truth... :)


MarkG said:
Also, if it's only 720p, that's not really even a big step up from PAL (720x576->960x720... about 66% more pixels vs nearly four times as many for 1080).
Well, the argument on effective resolution and data retention between this cam and its HDV opponents could go on forever. But I’m confident that the HVX (out of the box) will exceed the quality found in HDV offering 1080i (out of the box), primarily because of the bit rate/codec is superior to the MPEG2 of HDV. That’s not to dispute the versatility and acceptability of the MPEG2 codec, I just prefer something a little less tainted.


Now, when modders get a hold of the FX1/Z1U and widen the stream of data to go directly to hardrive or solid state, it will be an entirely different discussion, but we’ll also have to see what happens when modders have their way with the HVX. When looking at both of these cameras from a modders perspective, these cameras have about the same short term potential, but when it comes to long term, the HVX appears to have a major edge.
 

MarkG

New member
Certainly DVCPRO HD has a better compression algorithm, and uses 4:2:2 for colors. However, 960x720 DVCPRO HD is still about 7:1 compression with half as many pixels as HDV, so I'm far from convinced that it will produce a better picture in most case... it's always going to be hard to beat a different format with twice as many pixels if both cameras are decently designed.

Obviously it does have benefits in editing, since, like DV, you can capture footage and output back to tape without recompressing if you don't color correct or add any effects. But if you're shooting anything serious on HDV you'd master to a better format anyway.

But, still, $2,000 for 4 minutes of recording on a P2 card kills it for most people working on a budget. Even if some of the other rumors are true and Panasonic can get it down to more like $100 a minute, that's a heck of a lot of money to spend just for the recording medium and a lot of hassle to have to keep transferring the footage off the cards to a PC.
 
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Digigenic

Guest
The actual amount of pixels on the Sony CCD is 960x1080 and then it’s processed and upconverted to synthesize a 1440x1080 image for output. Which is quite an accomplishment, no doubt, but it's fake, like their cineframe mode. I won't dispute that through all of the code crunching trickery, they produce a decent image, but with it being interlaced, and having to go through the wicked compression scheme, the image from the 960x720 PROGRESSIVE with 4:2:2 color will look as good, if not better, and more importantly will be retained in a more stable manner.

I don’t know if what they finally offer in the HVX will justify the cost of P2 memory or the change in workflow due to less recording time, but the odds do appear to be against them. It does look like they might have overshot this one. But, then again, it’s too early to tell.

JVC has had enough time to disappoint and come back with something decent but overpriced, Sony gave us a nice try and appears to show some promise with their code crunching trickery, Panasonic may have tried too hard and alienated themselves in the process, so now that leaves good old Canon. Even though we know they’ll employ some variation of HDV, it’ll be interesting to see how they massage the format to their advantage. We all know they have their own bag of tricks, we shall see what kind of show they put on for us, and even more importantly, they’ll see what kind of shows we put on with their tools. 8)
 

MarkG

New member
The actual amount of pixels on the Sony CCD is 960x1080 and then it’s processed and upconverted to synthesize a 1440x1080 image for output
That's per CCD, and the camera uses 'pixel shift' (i.e. the green CCD offset by half a pixel), not digital upconversion, to get the 1440x1080 image. So it's not as good as a real 1440x1080 CCD, but no worse than the XL1/XL2, which also use low-res CCDs and pixel shift... in fact, AFAIR a lot of high-end Beta cameras do and no-one's complaining about those.

Unless there's no green in the image, or the image is almost all green, you won't see a huge difference between pixel shift and a real full-size CCD. Certainly resolution isn't an important issue with any HDV footage I've seen from the FX1 so far.

now that leaves good old Canon
Yeah, I'll be interested to see what they come out with. Though if it's not at least announced by NAB, it'll be too late for me.
 
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Digigenic

Guest
MarkG said:
...and the camera uses 'pixel shift'...not digital upconversion, to get the 1440x1080 image. So it's not as good as a real 1440x1080 CCD, but no worse than the XL1/XL2, which also use low-res CCDs and pixel shift... in fact, AFAIR a lot of high-end Beta cameras do and no-one's complaining about those.
Yes, pixel shift is used in other cameras, and there aren't any complaints about them because they aren't shifting to capture HD and attempting to squeeze it through an SD pipeline :!: :)

Criticism aside, I'm amazed that this camera can perform the way it does, it is a phenominal tool, and I'd be a lyer if I said I didn't find it an attractive option. Though, I believe the best has yet to come. Sony has always been at the top of the game, but never without competition.
 
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Digigenic

Guest

such a tease....
8)
Expect to see more pictures next week.
:wink:
 
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Digigenic

Guest
...by the way....
this camera also has 1080 @ 60i, 30P, and 24P---NON HDV I might add.
8)
 

MarkG

New member
Incidentally, from what I've read it apparently has 1280x720 CCDs and uses 'pixel shift' to scale that up to 1920x1080 :).
 
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Digigenic

Guest
You can't always get what you want :wink:
You have to admit though, this little camera is achieving rock star status.
 
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Digigenic

Guest
Thank you Jan, and welcome to the forums.
I agree; this camera is the hottest thing since Sliced Bread 2 Electric Boogaloo. :)

I believe this tool can provide a revolutionary filmmaker with the means to achieve a revolutionary vision, therefore assisting in revolutionizing the indie filmmaking community.

It all starts with the people--the filmmakers, the engineers, the enthusiasts, and those people who make up the community and have helped to create this revolution. Particularly those within the DVXuser.com forums and the DVinfo.net forums, they’ve had a tremendous impact on the development of this camera.

I have directed quite a few people over to the DVXuser.com forums; it has become quite the haven for those armed with an idea and a camcorder—even if it isn’t a DVX100.
Seriously, just for a peak of the bride to be, we saw a thread spin into 50+ pages and over 40,000 views within 5 days…
That kind of feedback means that something big is on the horizon...
8)
 
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Digigenic

Guest
Images of the ‘mock-up’ HVX from the Apple Press Conference today.
8)
Price is set to be just below 6 grand without P2 cards.
Price of the camera including 2 8GB P2 cards is set just below 10 grand.
Their will be a tape drive for DV recording, and their will also be a hard drive option.

We'll be seeing more of the HVX in the next couple of days at NAB













 
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vervor

Guest
sweeeeet

who wants to make an indie flick around philly this summer as soon as these are avail for rent??!! :p
 
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Digigenic

Guest
I'd love to, but from what I'm hearing, the HVX won't be available until late fall. They might be taking preorders through the summer though.
 
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vervor

Guest
damn...will be in L.A. by then...so...who wants to make an indie out there?!

what do you all think - would it be worth it to take out a credit card and blow it all on this camera and see if it can pay for itself with jobs and people looking to use it or is this going to be too expensive to take care of to do anything besides rent?? - very excited to get working with this...
 
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